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Rays reveal details and renderings of proposed stadium, part two — the unfavorable aspects

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(Photo Credit: Tampa Bay Rays)

On Tuesday, the Tampa Bay Rays hosted a press conference in which artistic renderings of a proposed stadium in Ybor City were revealed. The purpose of the presser was simple, to gin up enthusiasm for the project within the community and outside the urban core.

As with anything, many positives were expressed — and unintentional negatives were intimated — during the 45-minute meeting. In the spirit of conveying coherent ideas, as opposed to writing one long convoluted article, I decided to break the subject into two separate categories — thus necessitating two different articles — one on the positives, and one on the negatives. This piece happens to be about the unfavorable aspects from the press conference, which took place at the Italian Club in Ybor City, blocks from the the proposed 14-acre site.

As expected, the renderings painted a picture of an innovative, and breathtaking (by the accounts of many) facility which played well to those in attendance, as well as those streaming the press conference online.

Days ago Noah Pransky (WTSP 10 Investigates, Shadow of the Stadium blog) made a prediction of how the presser would play out, and dare I say it largely followed the script?

  1. Rays have thought of everything and they think their renderings are awesome.
  2. Pics took politicians’ breath away – they love them.
  3. But a lot of work lies ahead – they need businesses and the community to step up with money if this is going to happen.

A few crucial aspects of the team’s pitch were intentionally left off the agenda though, most notably a discussion about how to fund the project.

Stadium costs

The initial price tag for the proposed facility will be upward of $892-million, far exceeding Principal Owner Stu Sternberg’s initial “highball” estimate of $800-million. The costs break down into $809-million for the stadium itself and another $83-million for what the team calls “necessary infrastructure” improvements, including public realm and safety improvements, as well as mobility and resiliency improvements. The glass-domed roof will account for 30% of the total cost, roughly $245-million. Not included in cost estimates, however, are those associated with the relocation of the TECO substation, site acquisition, and the money owed to the City of St. Petersburg for the remaining balance on the stadium per the usage agreement, not to mention the cost of demolishing Tropicana Field.

The additional costs, assuming the Rays don’t pay for them on their own, bring the total price tag closer to $915-million for a stadium the team suggested it would contribute more than $150-million toward, but less than $300-million. Let’s instead say Sternberg commits anywhere from $250-million to $299-million — which clearly is a big “if” at the moment — that leaves Hillsborough on the hook for at least $616-million.

Flippant as he may be, Sternberg must be aware that $600-$700 million in public subsidies is a non-starter. And since the team hasn’t settled on a firm contribution yet, they clearly are playing negotiating shenanigans.

Stadium costs aside, Rays President Brian Auld conceded that the team has no answers on how to pay for the stadium, although he was quoted as saying, that it’s a “very compelling investment opportunity” for everyone in the room and is open to creative funding.

Rays executives had anywhere from five months (when they announced their preferred stadium site) and a decade to come up with funding ideas for a stadium, yet they waited until there are 5-1/2 months left in the MOU window to hammer out a deal. In plain English, the Rays have a park they want to build, but they don’t know how they will get it done.

It’s a stunning, albeit funny, admission that befuddled many.

Always the intrepid journalist, Pransky pointedly asked Sternberg how he plans to build the stadium he’s been dreamt of, and talked about, for years:

Pransky: $892-million. Can you afford it?
Sternberg: (Glibly) Well, potentially.
Pransky: What do you need from the public sector?
Sternberg: I haven’t even looked at it at this point really.
Pransky: You guys haven’t looked at it all?!?
Sternberg: Not to the point that’s necessary. We’ve been focused on what you saw today, which is in itself a huge, huge undertaking.

Pransky also questioned if there was a scaled-down ballpark model from the “Cadillac” version he rolled out, to which he said the showcased rendering actually is the “Buick.” In all fairness, they could scale-down bells, whistles, and costs later if necessary.

Then there was the query about what happens in five-to-six months if a deal doesn’t get hammered out? Sternberg, again, was glib, saying he hadn’t thought that far ahead.

It frankly was a disingenuous attempt to sell perception as reality. The team has thought long and hard about getting a stadium built which will be largely dependent upon public subsidization. Just slap together a few renderings and hope the general public will see the price tag as nothing more than a minor obstacle to overcome.

Neil deMause (Field of Schemes) put it another way:

So we are supposed to believe that the owner of a pro sports team, who for years has been demanding a new stadium as a way of improving his bottom line, went into designing and pricing out a new stadium with no thoughts at all of how it would be paid for or whether it would make money. Or the other possibility is that he thought, Hey, asking for hundreds of millions of dollars is a bad look — let’s just give the public lots of pretty pictures and hope they’ll be distracted enough not to worry about where the money will come from. I bet it’ll work on those stenographers at the Tampa Bay Times, anyway!

Since Tampa has been staked to tight budgets extending back to the recession of 2007/08, Mayor Bob Buckhorn didn’t sound too convinced the city could afford the price tag.

Buckhorn, however, allowed that a stadium is a want, not a need — one that is not worth leveraging the city’s future on.

It’s a lot of money. We’ve always known it was going to be a lot. I’m doing my best to try to get there, but I’m also willing to walk away if it doesn’t make sense…we don’t want to enter into a bad deal that’s going to burden my kids’ generation.

Moreover, Hillsborough County has limited funds available as it pays down debt on Raymond James Stadium, Steinbrenner Field and Amalie Arena over the next few decades.

Suffice it to say, coming up with a financial package over the waning 5-1/2 months will be a monumental task. When you add in the mounting resistance from people of all stripes, progressive and conservative, paired with Mayor Kriseman’s acknowledgement that he isn’t too keen on extending the MOU window, that monumental task becomes far larger.

St. Petersburg Mayor Rick Kriseman released a statement Tuesday after the press conference. Pay specific attention to the verbiage at the end of the statement.

Today represents another step in the process for the Tampa Bay Rays as stadium renderings are necessary in order to generate enthusiasm in a community. This is also another step in the process for the City of St. Petersburg. We are continuing to plan for a future both with and without a stadium on the Tropicana Field site. I encourage all fans of the Tampa Bay Rays to enjoy the exciting product on the field as the Rays organization and stakeholders in Tampa and Hillsborough County work toward a resolution.

To whit, Kriseman likely is aware that professional sports franchises contribute just a fraction of a percent to the local economy. In turn, St. Petersburg will continue to move forward with or without the team. If you didn’t catch it though, the last four words — work toward a resolution — suggests that the Rays and stakeholders in Tampa and Hillsborough County are at odds with one another … that they are far from coming together with a resolution that pleases everyone involved. That’s not how mutually beneficial teams are made.

In conclusion

To quote the theme song from the hit 80’s comedy The Facts of Life,

You take the good
You take the bad
You take them both and there you have
The facts of life
The facts of life

When the world never seems
To be living up to your dreams
Then suddenly you’re finding out
The facts of life are all about you

There are many great aspects to this ambitious project. Then again, the same can be of the unfavorable attributes. The facts of life, as it were. Finding a location and coming up with a design have proven to be easy and exciting, yet finding the money and the public will to build a stadium are proving to be an uphill battle. I, like many other fans, want my beloved team to play in a new stadium. Yet that facility must be in a more feasible location, less contentious location (more on that tomorrow) and should not depend the generation of new public subsidies.

One final quote,

…And so it goes.
— Kurt Vonnegut

The New What Next: Rays vs. Red Sox — the FINAL series preview

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Logan Forsythe scored on Brad Miller's first inning, RBI single. The Rays tallied one more run on Thursday en route to their eighth shutout of the season. (Photo Credit: Tampa Bay Rays)

Logan Forsythe scored on Brad Miller’s first inning RBI single. The Rays tallied one more run Thursday night, en route to their eighth shutout of the season. (Photo Credit: Tampa Bay Rays)

After losing the series against the New York Yankees, but salvaging in the series finale, the Tampa Bay Rays are set to begin their final home series of the season Friday against the Boston Red Sox. Sentimentality aside, this will be David Ortiz’s last trip into Tropicana Field and I honestly couldn’t be happier! Seriously…ding-dong the witch is dead; so on and so forth!

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The Red Sox have won eight straight games against AL East opponents for the first time in 26 years, including a four-game sweep of the Baltimore Orioles — pushing their lead to 5-½ games in the East, and reducing their magic number to five to clinch the division in doing so.

The Rays hurt New York’s playoff hopes with a 2-0 win on Thursday — their eighth shutout of the 2016 campaign. And though Evan Longoria’s seven-game hitting streak came to pass, he is just three hits shy of equaling his career high in hits (169, 2010), and five RBI from reaching 100 for the first time since 2010.

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Kevin Cash will lean on Chris Archer (8-18, 4.05 ERA), Matt Andriese (8-7, 4.41 ERA), and Jake Odorizzi (9-6, 3.73 ERA) over the next three days. John Farrell will counter with Drew Pomeranz (10-12, 3.40 ERA), Rick Porcello (21-4, 3.08 ERA), and Eduardo Rodriguez (3-7, 4.84 ERA).

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Rays Series Starters

Archer gave up three earned runs on seven hits (including a pair of homers) and a walk over 6-1/3 innings on Friday, striking out four. Despite hurling a quality start — his fourth in a row — the righty once again walked away sans a win. After a disappointing first half, Archer has built some momentum heading into the offseason with a solid 3.20 ERA/.208 OBA and 91 strikeouts over the second half of the season (78-2/3 innings).

Andriese allowed two runs on six hats and no walks, while fanning three over 5-1/3 innings in a win against Baltimore. The righty moved back above .500 with the victory Saturday. Two sacrifice flies in the first three innings put the Rays behind by a pair, however, Tampa Bay’s bats responded in the fourth and sixth innings, taking the lead for good. Since relinquishing seven runs in back-to-back starts, Andriese has allowed just three runs over his last 10-1/3 frames.

Odorizzi gave up just an earned run on five hits over six innings while fanning three on Sunday. The righty shut down the Orioles lineup on 105 pitches (71 strikes). His only mistake ended up as a 407-foot solo shot by Manny Machado, and Jake has now posted four straight starts where he has given up at least one long-ball. Still, the outing represented the sixth quality start in his last seven turns.

Red Sox Series Starters

Pomeranz has shown signs of fatigue in his last two turns, allowing nine runs over 5-2/3 innings. The lefty will attempt a rebound at Tropicana Field on Friday, where he is 1-1 with a 1.64 ERA in two career starts. In his last start against Tampa Bay, Pomeranz allowed three runs on five his over 6-2/3 innings in a 3-4 loss on August 30th. Key matchups: Mikie Mahtook (1-3, 2B, RBI), Luke Maile (2-5, HR, 2 RBI), Brad Miller (5-11, HR, 3 RBI)

Porcello allowed just two runs on four hits, while striking out seven in a complete game against the Orioles on Monday. The righty stymied the Orioles, earning his 21st win of the season on just 89 pitches (65 strikes). Porcello has been really good over the second half of the season, extending his quality-start streak to 11 games with his last outing. Porcello maintains a 2.23 ERA and a 13.2 K/BB over that span. He allowed back-to-back three run outings against the Rays on August 24th and 29th (respectively), although Tampa Bay won the former meeting. Key matchups: Logan Forsythe (8-27, 3B, RBI, BB), Luke Maile (1-1, 2B, RBI), Bobby Wilson (4-11, 2B, RBI)

Rodriguez hurled 6-1/3 innings of two-run ball on Tuesday, striking out seven and allowing just four hits and a walk. The southpaw continued his success in Baltimore, taking a no-no into the fifth inning after throwing four no-hit innings in his last start in Charm City. Rodriguez rebounded nicely from a 2-1/3 inning start against the Yankees last Wednesday. The Rays hammered the lefty to the tune of nine runs on 11 hits over 2-2/3 innings on June 27th. Key matchups: Logan Forsythe (3-7, HR, 3 RBI, 2 BB), Nick Franklin (2-2, 2B, 3 RBI), Evan Longoria (4-7, 2B, RBI), Mikie Mahtook (3-6, 2B, RBI)

Noteworthiness

— Corey Dickerson is 21-58 with six doubles, five homers and 11 RBI in the last 15 games.

— Kevin Kiermaier snapped a 1-14 skid with three hits on Thursday, although his streak of 18 straight stolen bases was also snapped.

— The Rays have dropped nine of 16 against Boston this season.

— Hanley Ramirez has 12 homers and 31 RBI since August 30th (a span of 21 games).

— Asshole slugger David Ortiz moved within one of Lou Gehrig (1,190) for 10th place on Major League Baseball’s all-time list for extra-base hits.

— Mookie Betts is in the midst of a nine-game hitting streak.

Initial details on Tropicana Field site redevelopment released

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(Photo credit: Janelle Irwin)

(Photo credit: Janelle Irwin)

On Monday, HKS — the architectural firm tasked with creating the redevelopment master plan for the 86-acre Tropicana Field site — released a conceptual model of what a redeveloped and reimagined Trop property could look like.

The potential location (pictured above) for the new facility is in the northeast corner of the property where U-Haul currently resides. It’s worth noting, the planning process has yet to be concluded, rather this a very preliminary idea of potential site layout. The stadium depicted in the model is not the actual design, therefore a conclusion of what a new facility may look like — be that of an open air stadium, a roofed facility, or some derivation thereof — should not be drawn.

The rest of the site infuses retail, office, housing and green space into the concept that, to borrow from Janelle Irwin (Tampa Bay Business Journal), shuts down artificial borders now created by a giant stadium and a sea of asphalt.

The open spaces — which could be used for arts, green space, trails and parks — would split the existing site from east to west, with another split bisecting the center north to south.

Part of the concept would restore Booker Creek which could be a focal point of the design. Booker Creek is not likely to be a candidate for activities on the water, however, due to its size.

The most important component of the redevelopment plan is the inclusion of expanded transportation and transit access to and from the site, utilizing the future Bus Rapid Transit planned for First Avenues North and South which would connect to the downtown ferry service set to launch in three months.

Another rather ambitious aspect of the plan consists of the elimination of Interstate 175, which would be turned it into a promenade boasting condos and storefronts — doing away with the literal and metaphorical barrier standing between downtown St. Petersburg and the economically disparaged neighborhoods to the south. That too could be achieved by creating an overland park connecting Campbell Park, bolstered by the forthcoming skatepark, to the redeveloped Tropicana Field site.

The concept is somewhat contingent upon the notion that the Rays will continue to play baseball at the current location – something that’s not guaranteed. The ball club is considering a bevy of potential sites on both sides of the bay. The site will be redeveloped with our without a stadium…although one with a new facility would be the operable outcome.

St. Petersburg Mayor Rick Kriseman — as well as those involved with the Baseball Forever campaign — is confident that the current site, reimagined and redeveloped, is the best location for Major League Baseball in Tampa Bay. In an ideal world, team leadership will come to the same conclusion.

Looking Backward While Moving Forward: Odorizzi strong in Rays 5-1 win against the Yankees

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State of the turf. (Photo Credit: Anthony Ateek/X-Rays Spex)

State of the turf. (Photo Credit: Anthony Ateek/X-Rays Spex)

The Tampa Bay Rays kicked off their current 10-game homestand with a 5-1 win over the New York Yankees — their second straight win. Jake Odorizzi collected the Rays’ ninth consecutive quality start, keeping the Yankees in check over his 6-2/3 innings, while the offense used the extra-base hit to take control of the game early.

Odorizzi, who posted eight scoreless innings his last start against the Athletics, continued to pitch well Friday night. The righty struck out five and scattered six singles amidst trade speculation, and fears the band may get torn apart. Odorizzi got off to an inauspicious start, giving up back-to-back singles in the first with one out, however, he struck out Brian McCann (looking) and got Mark Teixeira to line to center to end the threat.

The Rays took a quick lead in the bottom of the first against Ivan Nova, who hadn’t given up more than one earned run in each of his last two starts. Logan Forsythe crushed a 2-0 fastball to left center for his 10th homer of the year. Then Corey Dickerson went yard to right with two outs, giving Tampa Bay a two run advantage.

Forsythe’s homer was his first to leadoff a game. It was also the third this season by Tampa Bay and the first since RF Steven Souza Jr. on May 20th against Detroit.

Odorizzi worked around a single and a balk in the top of the third to put another goose egg on the board. Thanks in part to Jake’s no-run inning, Rays were also able to extend their lead in the bottom of the inning — and it all started with Brad Miller’s triple to right-center. Evan Longoria followed with a five pitch walk before Dickerson plated a run on a fielder’s choice to second for a three-run advantage.

Following a scoreless fourth, Tamapa Bay chased Nova in the bottom of the fifth inning. Miller and Longoria hit back-to-back doubles to make it a four-run game. After Dickerson flew out to left, Steve Pearce reached on a hard-hit infield single that Chase Headley, somehow, was able to knock down and prevent from becoming an extra-base hit into the left field corner. Nova’s night was done as Joe Girardi called upon righty Chad Green.

Green, however, wasn’t much better. The righty walked Kevin Kiermaier to load the bases, then gave up a sacrifice-fly toSouza to the wall in left, making it a five run game and capping the scoring. Green again walked the bases loaded (Brandon Guyer) before he collected an inning ending strikeout of Luke Maile (swinging).

Odorizzi departed the game two outs into the seventh inning after allowing two singles sandwiched around a fielder’s choice, that almost became a double play. Odorizzi scattered six base hits that didn’t do any damage. His fastball command was really good, and he was able to control where he wanted to throw his pitches.

Kevin Jepsen entered the game and got the final out the inning, allowing the righty to lower his ERA to 5.71.

New York was able to get on the board in the eighth inning against Dylan Floro on a two-out single to center by Mark Teixeira. Yet with two on and two out, Xavier Cedeno got Didi Gregorius to line out to Kiermaier in center, ending the threat.

Finally in the ninth, facing the bottom of the order, Erasmo Ramirez — who has been connected with Baltimore leading up to the trade deadline — allowed a pair of one-out singles. Because of it, he was lifted in favor of Alex Colome. The closer got Brett Gardner to ground into a 6-4 fielder’s choice, and Jacoby Ellsbury to fly to center to end the game. Colome is now 23-out-of-24 in save opportunities.

The New What Next

Drew Smyly (2-11, 5.42 ERA) will face off against Nathan Eovaldi (5-9, 5.00 ERA) in the second game of the weekend series. Smyly’s 0-7 record in his last 11 games is longest in-season losing streak by a Rays hurler since James Shields lost seven straight in 2010. In spite of that, Smyly tossed six excellent innings of one-run ball Saturday against Oakland, fanning and walking one en route to a no-decision. He enters the game three strikeouts shy of 500 for his career. Eovaldi leads the Yankees in wins, however, he is 1-2 with a 3.86 in three career starts against Tampa Bay. Be that as it may, he allowed one earned run in six innings to earn the win on May 29, when he last faced the Rays at the Trop. You can read about the pitching matchup in our series preview.

Rays 7/30/16 Starting Lineup

Forsythe 2B
Miller DH
Longoria 3B
Dickerson LF
Pearce 1B
Kiermaier CF
Souza Jr RF
Beckham SS
Casali
Smyly LHP

Noteworthiness

— Disabled list update. RHP Alex Cobb (Tommy John surgery) threw two scoreless innings Friday night for the Charlotte Stone Crabs. Per Marc Topkin (Tampa Bay Times), it was the first time in three rehab starts that he completed at least one inning.

OF Desmond Jennings (left hamstring strain) had a double in three at-bats Friday for the Stone Crabs. RHP Chase Whitley (Tommy John surgery) will pitch three innings tonight for the Montgomery Biscuits.

The New What Next: Tampa Bay Rays vs Baltimore Orioles — a series preview

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Latest call-up, Luke Maile (left) caught 12-of-38 attempted base stealers (31.6%) this season for the Durham Bulls. (Photo Credit: Tampa Bay Rays)

Latest call-up, Luke Maile (left) caught 12-of-38 attempted base stealers (31.6%) this season for the Durham Bulls. (Photo Credit: Tampa Bay Rays)

The long stretch until the end of the season — AKA the Tampa Bay Rays miracle run — begins Friday, when the Baltimore Orioles travel to St. Petersburg for a three game series.

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While the Rays are mired in a 3-25 stretch, the Orioles, who sit at the top of the AL East, have gone 4-6 over their last 10 games, including a four-game victimization/sweep by the Seattle Mariners. Be that as it may, I won’t cherry pick statistics to demonstrate  why Tampa Bay, some how…some way, will eke out a series win. Why? Because if we’ve learned anything from this ugly stretch of play, it’s that the Rays have regressed back to the Devil Rays.

Sure, it would be phenomenal for the team to snap out of this funk, and to be honest, it’s not like they don’t have the capability to do so. Besides the Rays are now closer to full strength with the re-addition of Kevin Kiermaier, as well as the additions of Kevin Jepsen and Luke Maile, who will take the place of Hank Conger on the active roster.

Then again, the team has been…uhh, rather surprising all season, so make your own inference.

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Kevin Cash will throw Chris Archer (4-12, 4.66 ERA), Matt Moore (5-6, 4.46 ERA), and Jake Odorizzi (3-5, 4.47 ERA) over the next three days. Buck Showalter will counter with Yovani Gallardo (3-1, 5.82 ERA), Chris Tillman (12-2, 3.41 ERA), and a player to be named ahead of Sunday’s contest.

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Rays Series Starters

Archer dished up five earned runs on seven hits and two walks in a loss to the Red Sox on Friday. He struck out just three. Archer fell behind frequently, a recipe for disaster against any lineup. He was able to notch only nine (of 26) first-pitch strikes  and coaxed 10 whiffs on 116 pitches. Archer is one loss away from equaling his career-high mark set last season, while his four wins currently rank as his lowest total since 2012 when he fired only 29-1/3 innings. Archer told Marc Topkin (Tampa Bay Times) the answer to his extensive first-inning struggles is internal:

It’s not that I need to warm up more or warm up less, it’s just a matter of whenever I’m on the mound of attacking hitters.

Moore allowed four runs (two earned) on seven hits and three walks while striking out four over six innings against Boston last Saturday. The southpaw gave up a pair of runs in both the fourth and fifth innings, and the Rays’ offense failed to offer him any support, leading to his sixth loss of the season. He’s held opponents to two earned runs or fewer in five of his last six starts, allowing him to lower his ERA to 4.46.

Odorizzi gave up four runs on six hits and a walk over five innings last Sunday, while fanning only four. Jake wasn’t sharp, throwing 52 of 86 pitches for strikes (60% K%; six whiffs), although with David Price dealing for the Red Sox, Odorizzi would have had to match him pitch-for-pitch for a shot at a win. He’s put together just one quality start over his last six starts, and added a full run to his ERA (4.47) heading into the All-Star Break.

Orioles Series Starters

Gallardo allowed two runs on six hits and four walks, while striking out two in a five inning no decision against the Angels on Saturday. Gallardo shut down the Angels for five innings, yet allowed a pair of runs in the sixth inning, leaving the game with a one run deficit. The righty has fired just one quality start in his nine outings this season, and his ERA sits at 5.82. Gallardo allowed three runs on seven hits (including a homer) over 5-1/3 innings against the Rays on June 24. Key matchups: Corey Dickerson (4-6, 2B, HR, 4 RBI), Logan Forsythe (4-13, 2B), Desmond Jennings (2-8, 3B), Kevin Kiermaier (3-7, 2B, RBI, BB), Brad Miller (2-8, 2B, 3B)

Tillman was good over seven innings on Sunday, allowing just one run on three hits. He, however, walked five batters. His record is superb, although Tillman’s wobbled a bit lately — posting a 5.02 ERA and a 1.33 K/BB over his last five starts. The Rays tagged him for six runs on 10 hits (including a homer) and two walks over five innings on June 25. Key matchups: Tim Beckham (1-4, RBI, BB), Logan Forsythe (9-28, 3 2B, RBI, BB), Brandon Guyer (3-11), Evan Longoria (17-57, 4 2B, 7 HR, 10 RBI, 5 BB), Logan Morrison (5-11, 2B, RBI, BB), Steven Souza Jr. (4-16, 2B, HR, 3 RBI, 2 BB)

Noteworthiness

At the time of his expected activation, Maile was hitting .345 with six doubles and two homers in 17 games with Triple-A Durham since June 21. He also caught 12 of 38 attempted base stealers (31.6%) this season.

I’ve just been trying to be myself, Maile told the Times. There’s been some times when I’ve tried to do a little bit too much.

Injury Report

— Alex Cobb (Tommy John surgery) threw a bullpen session at Tropicana Field on Thursday with no apparent issues. Because he left his previous rehab start after one inning and 27 pitches due to fatigue, Cobb will get an extra day of rest before his next scheduled start.

— Steve Pearce (hamstring) worked out on Thursday and ran the bases, saying he felt very good. He plans to start a rehab assignment this weekend and is slated to rejoin the team next week.

— Brad Boxberger (oblique) is scheduled to throw another bullpen session Friday, but will need an extended rehab before he can return to the fold.

— Desmond Jennings (hamstring) and Mikie Mahtook (broken left hand) are still working out.